Curse

cgruber · May 21, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Been playing with these lately and some are pretty interesting but the big problem that I see is you lose all of your equiped staffs abilities. This makes these skills much less useful as you lose casting speed/energy/health/whatever.

Would like to see something to address and make them more useful.

Toutatis · May 21, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

There's already a way to get around the energy problem - putting Empowerment on your skill bar and using it regularly

Zinger314 · May 21, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toutatis

There's already a way to get around the energy problem - putting Empowerment on your skill bar and using it regularly

Using a skill to counter the bad effects of another skill is a lame solution. Plus Empowerment will only increase the max Energy of a Ritualist, therefore it's usually irrelevant in the long run...

Regardless, all the non-Elite Item Spells are fine and well-balanced. The Elite ones, however, need a massive retooling, but that's another subject.

GreatLich · May 21, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Using a skill to counter the bad effects of another skill is a lame solution.

I just wish everyone felt the same way, 't would fix those meta-game and skill-synergy things...

Div · May 21, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Most of the rit item spells are fine. There are a few that are underpowered, but there are also many, many other skills that could use balancing.

Belzan · May 21, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I personally think the Rit class is pretty balanced overall.

Granted, they gain no 20/20 bonus for many of their most commonly used skills (binding rituals) and they lose the benefits of their weapons when they use item skills, but they have a lot of unique benefits as well.

Weapon Spells function like Monk Enchants and Buffs and cannot be removed like enchants. Rituals provide a variety of offensive and defensive abilities that can benefit many people in one casting. Spawning Power has good synergy with minions. Weapon Spells work great with pets. Rits are effective healers and boast a pretty good offensive Channeling line of damage dealing skills.

I agree, it wouldn't hurt to have some benefit when holding an item. But you need to know your spells too.

There are 2 types of item spells; 1) the kind you hold onto until the duration expires, and 2) the kind you drop to gain the desired effect.

The first variety will benefit you the most when dropped. You gain little benefit while holding them and you lose all benefit of your weapons. This is an encouragement to get you to your target more quickly to drop the item. In addition, many of these skills have a long duration (up to 51 seconds in most cases) which allows you to cast them before battle and regain your spent energy.

The second variety almost always benefits you in some way while you hold the item. This compensates you for not having access to your weapons. The idea is that the benefit of holding the item outweighs the negatives of losing access to your weapon benefits.

Do we need a buff to item spells to compensate for losing access to our weapons? I personally don't think so. It is pretty balanced at the present time.

To compensate for the loss, consider using [skill]Empowerment[/skill] as stated above, or wearing Oracle's Armor or using the Herald's Insignia (+10 armor while holding an item) and adding Attunement and Vitae runes to your armor to give you a higher starting base. When I use builds that focus on item spells, I wear this armor with a Vigor rune and 3 Attunement runes. This takes care of most of the benefits I would receive from weapons.

Gregslot · May 21, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

I consider Empowerment a very crappy spirit. Im not one of those people that like to complain about every single aspect of the game (im saying this just to let you know im one of the good guys

).
I mean, come on, why do we even get the +40hp? Its ridiculous.
And the energy gained isnt THAT good, not enough to say "empowerment is giving me power hahaha", i would very much preffer to use another spirit (even if makes me waste more energy) or use any of the skills that give you energy back (soothing images and etc).

Im not saying "it should give you +50 energy and +7 energy regen", but make us feel empowered (add armor, maybe?)

LONGA · May 21, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Well even crappy spirits have their use when come to plays with multiple Rts
Imagine sprits spike out of nowhere using Signet of ghostly might.Or make them a rupture soul target.

RT skills already got a lots of alternative.Its depend on players to find them whats work.

I used to think that Mighty was Vorizun was a good skill. Untill I got Anguish was Lingwah.And found that taht one was hella better interm of versatile.

cgruber · May 21, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

I should probably clarify that while I do think they all could use some sort of tweaking, Destructive was glave I think sucks for an elite. It would be cool EXCEPT you drop it after 10 seconds.

ClanYumemiru · May 21, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgruber

I should probably clarify that while I do think they all could use some sort of tweaking, Destructive was glave I think sucks for an elite. It would be cool EXCEPT you drop it after 10 seconds.

OH.MY.GOD.
Do you know what you're saying ?

Just consider, briefly, the following combination.

Empowerment, then Destructive Was Glaive, start spamming Renewing Surge.

You should be able to get off about 5-7 Surges - maybe more, but I'm factoring in a few short kites and distractions.
Let's assume 15 Channeling Magic and 10 Spawning Powr (not unreasonable)

Let's see - that's 5-7 times 60 Lightning damage at 10% AP, so against a 60AR target (which would have an effective AR of 54 - let's call it 55) you'd be doing 60 x 1.125 = 67.5 - round to 68, time 5-7 is 340 to 476 damage!!!!
(FYI, against an 80AR target (effective AR: 72) that would be 260 to 364 damage, against AR100 (effective 90) it's still 200 to 280 damage!!)

It would cost you 40 to 50 energy (including the spirit and DwG), but over those same 10 seconds, you will regenerate about 13 energy, so net cost is 27 to 37 energy - easily managed.

Net totals:

You inflicted 340 to 475 damage on a 60AR target (and that's pretty damn impressive in my book) - and if you don't care for your enchantments, you can even manually ditch Glaive's Ashes prior to the effect running out to deal ANOTHER 100 Lightning damage to anything in the area.

Ouch.
And you wanted a buff ?

Edit: Figured in the energy costs for the support spells and fixed my broken spelling. Blergh :\

cgruber · May 21, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

i tried that build for the record and it sucks :/

ClanYumemiru · May 22, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgruber

i tried that build for the record and it sucks :/

Is that the fault of the designer or the player ?

I'll give you another example - Mighty was Vorizun + Empowerment.
Assuming - 15 Channeling, 10 Spawning Power, 10 Communing (yes, this is possible)

That's +40 Energy, +15 Armor and +35 HP total.
OK, say you had a Forgotten Staff or similar - you lose 30HP, 20 energy and the 20% HSR - so the net gain is 15 armor, 20 energy and 5 HP.

Consider casting Channeled Strike (for a total of 130 damage per hit) and Renewing Surge (60 damage) - heck, you can toss Spirit Burn (105 damage a pop) and Essence Strike (60 damage, you gain 9 energy) in with it, and take Caretaker's Charge as Elite. (for another 75 damage dealt, 5 energy & 50HP gain)

Ouch. That's a pretty potent combination offering good energy management and high damage output.

And that makes 7 skills total too - so place left for a res sig/skill too ...

Yes ?

cgruber · May 23, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

So I gave it a bit thought and I think if could add it as an inherent bonus under spawning power it would even out the loss.

Something like

While holding an item for every point in spawning power you gain 1 energy, 1 health.

Still doesn't fix some of the spells which I do still think sorta suck.

HawkofStorms · May 23, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Umm.. You realize a.net realized this when they made these skills right? I mean, its not like a.net wasn't aware that you don't use weapons while holding items (a.net had to program item spells to do this after all). Its kinda the whole point and the skills are balanced around you sacrificing your weapons while using them.

If you got the benefit of your weapons, then they might as well be unstripable maintened enchantment with no energy upkeep.

Item spells really aren't bad in the right build and when used correctly. They are just VERY specific and require you to design builds around them (rather then just slapping them onto a skill bar to round it out). Thus they may seem like they "suck" if you don't really play around with them enough.

lightblade · May 23, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Item Spells do need buffs...just think about all the good stuffs that you need to give up to hold the ashes.

20% HCT
20% HSR
+20 energy
+20% enchantment time
+10 armor

You'll miss all these goodies if you hold ashes.

ClanYumemiru · May 23, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgruber

So I gave it a bit thought and I think if could add it as an inherent bonus under spawning power it would even out the loss.

Something like

While holding an item for every point in spawning power you gain 1 energy, 1 health.

Still doesn't fix some of the spells which I do still think sorta suck.

Spawning Power already carries an inherent bonus in that each level gives your Spirits an additional 4% life points (HP)

If you even knock the Might was Vorizun/Empowerment combo (you have seen the net totals you gain even after the loss of weapon (and possible offhands) have been factored in); if you still, after two workable examples of an item spell build think "it sucks" - then perhaps Ritualist is not a profession for you -- everyone has some they can't get their heads around to play (for example - I can't properly play Mesmers, Assassins and Paragons) - so it might be a suggestion for you to try Elementalist.

ClanYumemiru · May 23, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Item Spells do need buffs...just think about all the good stuffs that you need to give up to hold the ashes.

20% HCT
20% HSR
+20 energy
+20% enchantment time
+10 armor

You'll miss all these goodies if you hold ashes.

This is the sacrifice you make to gain the abilities of whatever item you are holding. It's called "balance"
Some of these items confer some pretty substantial bonuses, and to have your weapon-related bonuses on top of that would be a bit much

A few examples:
* Destructive was Glaive - 10% AP on ALL your skills. Spirit bombing anoyone ?
* Anguished was Lingwah - a carriable, supercharged Spirit of Pain you can cast prior to an engagement and drop - for no casting time! when you need it most.
* Mighty was Vorizun - +15 armor, +30 max energy - effectivively a staff-and-a-half worth of energy, and nearly a shield's worth of armor to boot.
* Generous was Tsungrai - Endure Pain, Ritualist Style
* Lively was Naomei - drop to instantly revive *ALL* dead party members in the area around you. Great if you exacped a near-wipe and need a quick team rebuild.
* Protective was Kaolai - hit me, I've got 84 armor; I drop it, all my party members [i]regardless of where they are on radar[/] get healed.
* Resilient was Xiko - your best friend in a high hex/condition environment. The more they toss on you, the harder you become to kill
* Attuned was Songkai - cost reduction galore! Can your staff do that ?

Item spells are a trade-off; but remember, they cannot be removed easily, like Enchantments, there is only one monster skill (and no player skills!) that force you to drop an item (Thunder of Ahdashim) when you don't want to; and the bonuses on some of these items can add up substantially.

Of course there are some item spells that aren't so useful - but then I'll wager someone, somewhere will have found a use for them and is enjoying playing with them

hope this helps,

lightblade · May 23, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClanYumemiru

This is the sacrifice you make to gain the abilities of whatever item you are holding. It's called "balance"
Some of these items confer some pretty substantial bonuses, and to have your weapon-related bonuses on top of that would be a bit much

A few examples:
* Destructive was Glaive - 10% AP on ALL your skills. Spirit bombing anoyone ?
* Anguished was Lingwah - a carriable, supercharged Spirit of Pain you can cast prior to an engagement and drop - for no casting time! when you need it most.
* Mighty was Vorizun - +15 armor, +30 max energy - effectivively a staff-and-a-half worth of energy, and nearly a shield's worth of armor to boot.
* Generous was Tsungrai - Endure Pain, Ritualist Style
* Lively was Naomei - drop to instantly revive *ALL* dead party members in the area around you. Great if you exacped a near-wipe and need a quick team rebuild.
* Protective was Kaolai - hit me, I've got 84 armor; I drop it, all my party members [i]regardless of where they are on radar[/] get healed.
* Resilient was Xiko - your best friend in a high hex/condition environment. The more they toss on you, the harder you become to kill
* Attuned was Songkai - cost reduction galore! Can your staff do that ?

Item spells are a trade-off; but remember, they cannot be removed easily, like Enchantments, there is only one monster skill (and no player skills!) that force you to drop an item (Thunder of Ahdashim) when you don't want to; and the bonuses on some of these items can add up substantially.

Of course there are some item spells that aren't so useful - but then I'll wager someone, somewhere will have found a use for them and is enjoying playing with them

hope this helps,

No ty, I rather be using my 20/20 wand/focus combo.

Carrying an item spell also wastes one of my skill slot.

* Destructive was Glaive - 10% AP is not much more. It uses an elite slot.
* Anguished was Lingwah - Spirit of Pain have 3 seconds cast anyway. It's not like one of those 5 seconds cast spirits.
* Mighty was Vorizun - Using a skill slot to achieve something weapon can do.
* Generous was Tsungrai - NOT Endure Pain. You sac 10% when you cast, and I've seen so many Rt that sac themself to death to cast GwT.
* Lively was Naomei - Revive with half hp...just waiting for enemy to add another 15% dp.
* Protective was Kaolai - Heal Party do better, Life do better. LoD do better. Sacrificing your weapons for this?
* Resilient was Xiko - By the time you really have that much condition/hex on you, it's not something that regen can save you.
* Attuned was Songkai - 45 duration, 60 recharge. Very often I found myself out of energy to recast this when it expires.

HawkofStorms · May 23, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

10% AP isn't much more... unless you are in a spike team that needs every little bit of damage (and HCT is actually counterproductive to spike teams anyway).

GwT - Umm.. so you've seen noob Rts sac themselves. Play around with a blood necro till you get the hang of it then and then use it with a Rt.

LwN - What the heck are your monks doing?

PwK - Yes. You are gaining an ability usually reserved for another class (thus why the mesmer skill shared burden is an elite (admitedly a bad one), because it allows you to do what a water ele does).